One problem with raising lyretail swordtails is that the males are functionally sterile. While they produce viable sperm, they have an elongated gonopodium (a penis-like modified anal fin used to inject sperm into the female), which prevents them from mating. Lyretail in xiphophorines (members of the genus Xiphophorus containing platies, variatus, and swords) is a dominant gene. So, any fish inheriting a copy of the gene will grow a lyretail. Since the males are functionally sterile, the females must be mated to non-lyretail males. As a result all of the offspring of these matings will be heterozygous for lyretail or homozygous for non-lyretail. Why is this? A fish can only inherit the allele (a variant of a gene) for normal fins from its non-lyretail father. From its lyretail mother it will inherit either the non-lyretail allele or the lyretail allele. In the former case the fish will be non-lyretail; in the latter it will be lyretail. Now, using artificial insemination (AI), homozygous lyretails can be produced, but AI is a labor intensive procedure (I’ve done it and it’s a pain) and not really feasible for regular production of lyretails. So, breeders use non-lyretail males with lyretail females and cull out the 50% of offspring which are non-lyretails. Typically, the non-lyretail breeder males are selected from offspring of the best female lyretails in order to accumulate genes that code for improved lyretails, such as those for straight lyres and wide tails.
It occurred to me that possibly a lyretail male could be successful at mating if his gonopodium, and the two ventral fins that are used with the gonopodium to insert sperm and which are also elongated by the lyretail gene, were shortened to normal length. So, I set up an experimental vat with 20 non-lyretail females and six lyretail males with their gonopodia and ventral fins shortened.
How did I shorten the fins? Simple I placed the fish on a damp towel and using a sharp, sterile razor blade, I cut them short. Surprisingly, the females around cringed at this more than I did.
Why did I put the six surgically modified males with non-lyretail females? Well, just to remind you, female Poeciliidae (livebearers such as swords, mollies, and guppies) can store sperm and have multiple spawns from single mating. If one wants to be sure of male parentage of Poeciliidae one typically raises virgin females. This process is time-consuming and I rarely bother. Instead I set up matings that make it certain the desired offspring can be identified. Often I use genetic markers such as albinism. In this case, its done by using non-lyretail females who don’t have to be virgin because they could only have been bred to non-lyretail males. So, after being placed with my modified lyretail males, any future lyretail offspring could only come from the modified males. We’ll see what happens in a couple of months.
Interestingly enough, while processing the red lyretails, we found a male with a short gonopodium although his ventral fins were long. On the off chance he is functional, I gave him five non-lyretail females in his own breeding vat. Like the experimental vat fish, if any lyretail offspring are produced, they must be from the lyretail male.
Robert says
Very interested in seeing how this experiment turns out.
charles says
Robert,
I give my chance of success less than 10%, but if it works it can change our operations.
Tim says
Joanne Norton did this back in the 1960s IIRC? I read it in an old Aquarium fish magazine.
charles says
Tim,
Sorry for the tardy reply. I’ve had limited internet access and time to respond as I’ll explain in some blogs over the next few days.
I’m surprised Joanne didn’t tell me she’d done that. We communicated frequently in the 1970s and 80s about artificial insemination of livebearers and the production of fancy fin xiphophorines. She challenged me to produce a hifin, lyretail, plumetail swordtail, which I did for the American Livebearer Association’s 1978 convention.
In any event, the cost in time and space to try lopping off the gonopodia again is minimal. At worst, I’ll produce some nice non-lyretails from the females with the modified males.
Charles
Tim says
Her work with fancy livebearers was pretty cool. Loved the plume platys and the guppytail mollies. Please do keep up the good work, thinking outside the box. It makes this hobby what it is. My family lost all of our fish in a major flood, including but not limited to a line of Joanne’s plumes and the last known line of Naja’s gold angelfish (the ones that start silver and turn splotchy then gold). I was really happy to see you had the poecilia petenesis. I’d bought a group of those from a shop in Milwaukee WI when we were up there for my father’s funeral. Prior to finding them on your site I could find no other information about them for many years. When they were lost in the flood I considered them irreplaceable. Looking forward to ordering some soon. Again, keep up the good work!
charles says
Tim,
Joanne was a consummate fish breeder and geneticist. I got my first plumetail platies from her. Her guppytail mollies were incredible. I’ve tried to recreate them and have come close by crossing some guppytailed mollies I got from Gerard Schulz with Poecilia velifera. The resulting fry were spectacular, but apparently sterile; I never was able to get fry from the F1s. That was entirely unexpected since most molly hybrids are very fertile.
We have two lines of Poecilia petenensis. One from Bobby Ellermann and one from Dr. Ptacek at Clemson University. Bobby’s line has very nice black swords, while the Ptacek line is very large.
Charles
Tim says
Speaking of a tardy reply. Shortly after this thread my wife had to endure chemo. The following few years I wound up in a wheelchair and needing several surgeries. Finally hope to get back in to the hobby this year. Hope all is well with the rebuilding after the storms.
charles says
Tim,
I’m sorry to hear of your problems and hope things improve and you return to the hobby.
We are still recovering from Hurricane Harvey. It will take a year for our fish stocks to get back to normal.
Charles
Karl says
As far as I understand, the lyretail swordtail males lack the ‘hooks’ at the end of their appendix to properly inseminate females via transfer of sperm packets. Shortening the gonopodium shouldn’t solve this morphological atrophy, but only time will tell. Only using low-fin females as genetic markers was clever. As per lyretail males displaying normally shaped gonopodium, they are called Konitz-lyretail (king lyre) in Germany and are being line bred by hobbyists.
charles says
Karl,
Sorry for the tardy reply. I’ve been in the wild of west Texas and eastern New Mexico working on an article for TFH on rare Gambusia. Then upon return had some heating system issues to resolve.
Thanks for the information on the king lyre. I’ll certainly look closely for any in our stocks.
I’m somewhat skeptical about the utility of the gonopodial hooks. Not everything an organism has is there due to Darwinian selection. The arrangement of hooks for a particular species might just be accidental. If the hooks had to absolutely match up, then we wouldn’t get hybrids so easily. In any event, I’m not holding out a lot of hope for the success of the procedure, but it took little effort to set up. At worst, I’ll get some nice non-lyretail offspring from the females.
Charles
Joe A Morata says
how did you experiment go?
did you get lyre-tail swords when you shorten the gonopodium?
charles says
Joe,
So far, no. But I’m persistent (Susie, my wife, says “stubborn as a mule”) and plan to try again. This time I’m going to use very young males. My theory is they will not have had the negative experiences of unsuccessful mating with an oversized gonopodium and will function better. I’ll be setting up the new experiments soon.
Charles
Madf says
Have you set up your new experiment?
charles says
Actually, no. But, I just set aside some young, just developing male lyretails to use in the experiment. There are never enough hours in the day, days in the week, weeks in the month, months in the year, etc. to do all I want to do. But, now that I’ve set aside the males, I should set up the experiment in the next week or so.
Joe says
Have you tried artificial insemination. I have read articles where they successfully fertilize. I want to try this But i still don’t know where to find the very small pipettes to collect the sperm.
charles says
I did artificial insemination years ago. It’s tedious. I actually made my own pipettes by taking hollow glass tubes, heating them with a propane torch, and stretching the melting tube out. That is also tedious and requires a bit of practice.
joe says
Where do you get these hollow glass tubes? I am assuming you will have to make several attempts to have a functioning tool?
Were you successful in the artificial insemination procedure?
charles says
Joe,
You can get glass tubing at https://www.fishersci.com/us/en/home.html. Once there search products for glass tubing.
I was successful, but it was painfully tedious. It’s one of those tasks I’d choose to pay someone to do…
Charles
May Wu says
Hi,if you still need pipettes, glass tubing or any other lab filtration products, you can visis https://www.hawach.com/
Douglas Copeland says
Guys , I have placed 100 male and female lyretail swords i got from an importer , into a 12 500 lt tank , to see what would happen . Guess what ? There was about 7 males that were shorter than the rest , so now all the females are pregnant, and we are onto our 3 rd batch of offspring . There is nothing else in the tank , only them . And the young , which the first lot are about 2 inches long now , are all lyretail, no throwbacks that i can see . I think its a case of a large pool of good filtered water , plenty of top quality food , then nature finds a way ? Everyone at my local fish club said it wouldn’t work , now we are trying to work out why it did . Ha ha ! Any ideas anyone ????
charles says
Douglas,
Were the females ever, maybe before you acquired them, exposed to non-lyretail males? If so, swordtail females can store sperm from earlier matings and have multiple batches of fry without subsequent matings. I would like to see you raise virgin females and place them with your “shorter than the rest” males to see if they produce fry. Let me know if that works.
Charles
MR PETER CASTELLINO says
FROM MR PETER CASTELLINO , BOMBAY , 25-11-2022.
FISH ARE EXTREMELY MOODY ANIMALS AND EVEN WHEN YOU PROVIDE THE RIGHT ATMOSPHERE AND THE VERY BEST OF FOOD IF THEY DO NOT WANT TO BREED THEY WILL NOT BREED .
DOUBLE / LYRE TAIL SWORDTAILS ARE VERY RARE AND FRIGHTFULLY EXPENSIVE.
BEWARE OF KEEPING EXTRA LARGE SWORDTAIL FISH BRED IN PONDS AS THEY ARE PRONE TO GETTING WHITESPOT
Charles Clapsaddle says
Peter, First, sorry of the tardy reply. Your message just appeared. I’ve found livebearers to be very reliable breeders. Female lyretail swords are very productive. It’s the males that can’t functionally breed since the gonopodium is too long. Whitespot (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis [ich]) is a very easily treated parasite. Salt at 6 ppt, malachite green, methylene blue, acriflavine, and other dyes are very good at eliminating ich. Ich is common in nature but because the fish aren’t crowded and ich is a prey for other small critters, ich isn’t a fatal infestion in nature. In aquaria where ich has no predators and can easily find a host, it can overwhelm a fish.
Charles
Dade says
I just bought four Lyretail Sword, two of them look exactly like the picture posted and the other two have some black on the fins. It is very hard for me to tell which is female and which is male. Unlike the regular mollies, platies and guppies, I can easily tell which one is which. Can you tell me how to sex the Lyretail Sword and are they molly or are they just a new specie? Thank you!
My email is Malassas at the American Online dot com.
charles says
Dade,
Lyretail swords are not mollies. While lyretail mollies and swords look somewhat similar, the lyretail gene in the two species is not the same. In swords, the lyretail gene (which arose in swords owned by Ms. Simpson in the 1950s if I remember correctly) causes the edges of fins to be elongated. In swords, that causes the penis-like anal fin of the male (the gonopodium) to be too long to be functional.
To tell male from female, closely look at the anal fin. In females, while the leading edge of the anal fin will be elongated, the rest of the fin is fan shaped. In males, the anal fin is thin with no fin rays forming a fan. Also, mature females will have a gravid spot, a patch of clear area in front of the anal fin. Males will not have this. Also, females when viewed from above will be distinctly thicker in front of the anal fin than males are. If you observe your fish, you’ll also notice the males approaching the females from behind and below and swinging the anal fin (gonopodium) forward toward females’ bellies.
Charles
MR PETER CASTELLINO says
FROM MR PETER CASTELLINO , BOMBAY , 25-11-2022 .
SEXING LYRE TAIL OR TRIPLE FIN / TRISHUL IN HINDI SWORDTAILS IS VERY EASY .
THE SEXING IS IDENTICAL TO ALL OTHER LIVE BEARER FISH .
THE FEMALE HAS A TRIANGLE AT THE BOTTOM CENTRE OF ITS BODY PRECEDING THE TAIL FIN AND THE MALE HAS A HORIZONTAL ROD LIKE STRUCTURE AT THE BOTTOM CENTRE OF ITS BODY PRECEDING THE TAIL FIN LYRE TAIL SWORDTAILS ARE A NATURAL VARIETY OF SWORDTAIL .
SWORDTAILS CAN CHANGE SEX WITHOUT WARNING BUT REMAIN FERTILE
WHEN KEEPING LIVEBEARERS ALWAYS ENSURE THAT THERE ARE EQUAL PAIRS OF MALES AND FEMALES TO AVOID UNNECESSARY AND AVOIDABLE FIGHTS AND DEATHS AND WHEN ADDING A LIVEBEARER TO A TANK ALWAYS ADD A HANDFUL OF SALT AFTER FLOATING THE BAG WHICH IS OXYGEN PACKED FOR HALF AN HOUR .
GUPPIES MUST BE KEPT SEPARATE FROM MOLLIES AS THEY WILL BE KILLED BY THEM – SO WITHIN THE SAME TANK PUT A TEMPORARY DIVISION WITH A HEATER , SPONGE FILTER AND GIANT AIRSTONE THROUGH WHICH AIR IS PUMPED WITH A DOUBLE NOZZLE ARETOR / AIRBLOWER AND EVEN FILTER BALLS FOR MORE THAN CRYSTAL CLEAR WATER .
Charles Clapsaddle says
Peter,
We routinely keep guppies and mollies together without issue. Most of our livebearer breeding colonies consist of 6 males and 40-50 females.
Charles
Jann Ford says
Hi Charles,
Any results on this experiment yet? Should I start nipping off all the gonopodium(s)?
Jann
charles says
Jann,
Unfortunately, Hurricane Harvey threw a monkey wrench into the experiments. We lost those fish. I’m accumulating fish to try again. This time I want to use very young males.
Charles
jojimohan says
sir iam new to genetics can u clear my doubt sir
If i cross Lyretail female with normal non lyretail lineage male what will be the outcome? how much percentage lyretail will i get.
Charles Clapsaddle says
Unless artificial insemination has been used, the female lyretail will be heterozygous for lyretail, meaning she has one gene (technically allele) for lyretail and one for normal fins. She will produce two types of eggs, one with lyretail and one with normal. A normal (non-lyretail) male will produce only sperm with the gene (again, technically an allele) for normal fins. When that male is mated to the heterozygous female, on average, the fry will be 50% lyretail and 50% non-lyretail.
Charles
Steven says
I’m doing a similar experiment if not the same! I got only a few tanks so I’m limited. I recently placed a few months old fry with lyretail hifin males. I never thought about shortening the gonopodium for the males. Have you gotten any results? I have an extra regular fin make and would also see if I can improve the regular fin males and females to have a hifin. I read one of the comments about a plume tail, I would love to see if I can widen the tail to look similar to a bettas. I might let the “culls” but they are not really culls, live in my pond separated from my kois of course
Charles Clapsaddle says
Steven,
I have yet to get any positive results, but I lost those test populations in Hurricane Harvey and its aftermath. I plan to set up the experiments again. This time I plan to use young males that are just developing. Maybe older males that I used before can’t figure out how to mate or have given up trying.
Selection in plumetails can certainly enhance the plume.
Charles
Eddie says
Charles is spot on. Raised lyretail swords and always bred regular males with lyretail females. Fry were 50-50 ratio. I had some really big females that would continue to drop (100 fry) each month without males in the tank, so sperm storage is a fact. I wasn’t knowledgeable enough to experiment trimming gonopodium or inseminating. Just culled the regular fins with exception of a few breeder males. Looking to pick up a few virgin lyretail females in a couple months. Please post if you will have any available. Thx Eddie
Charles Clapsaddle says
Eddie,
I’m sorry for the tardy response. I just saw this message.
Our swordtails are beginning to recover from the losses during the Texas Winter Storm and its aftermath.
I set up a new gonopodium trimming test again and will be checking the results this fall.
Charles
Dennis TW says
Hi Charles,
Any positive results from the new test? I have 1 male paired with 3 female red vampire lyretails and would love to breed them using this method (if it is successful)
Best,
Dennis
Charles Clapsaddle says
Dennis,
No good results yet. I need to try with male just maturing.
Charles
Abhijit says
I tried breeding lyretail sword tail fish in the past with out modifying the fin and it didn’t work for the reasons explained above, but I believe when time passes some kind of evolution happens which makes breeding lyretail much natural and easy, providing the gean survive that long and doesn’t go out of fashion. But I tried breeding lyretail female with normal male and have some success in attaining lyretail male, female & some normal swords. My doubt is this does breeding the normal male and female sword from a lyretail female produce lyretail sword. The experiment is ongoing. From India.
Charles Clapsaddle says
Abhijit,
I’m sorry for the tardy response. I just saw this message.
We raise lyretail swords by mating lyretail females to regular males produced by lyretail females. Theoretically, those males will have some of the modifying genes to make better lyretails. Mating a normal male to a lyretail female will on average produce 50% lyretails and 50% normals.
Charles
Abhijit says
Thank you, i bean having little success with breading lyretail sword, the experiment is ongoing, i only keep swordtail and platy fish. I recently bread some Dalmation swordtail from calico swords and sky blue sword from red wagtail sword, as for lyre tail i am on the edge of perfecting the breading method, thank you for your time and reply Charles.
Charles Clapsaddle says
Abhijit, I’m sorry for the late reply. Your message just appeared. Please keep me informed on your progress. The best way to reach me is via email at charles@goliadfarms.com.
Charles
Abhijit says
Yes I will keep in touch with you via a mail. My hobby is going great, I am trying to get some coliflower swordtail fish to my collection, very expensive and from other people experience of keeping them I learned that breeding is similar to lyretail because they also produce different types, they don’t breed true. I have to read more about it before I commit to it. Any way thank you for what you do, loving your content from YouTube also.
Charles Clapsaddle says
Abhijit,
Good luck with your swordtails. Some breeders are doing wonders with fish, livebearers and Bettas especially.
Charles
Harry Smart says
Hi Abhijit and Charles,
I’m interested in the alleles for calico in platys. Hard to find any discussion of it online.
Would I be right in guessing there’s a relationship with the gene that gives tuxedo pattern?
I’m interested in both patterns. I have some blue tuxedo maculatus type where the blue is a nice deep shade, and currently have a couple of femals with a blue mickey mouse male who has above average colour. I’m hoping I can work towards improving the blue, don’t really want the tuxedo.
Have likewise seen images of green calicos, and would want to do the same thing, i.e. breed out the calico.
All part of my project to get a strong green platy by crossing blue maculatus types with variatus. Am having success, the main nuisance is the red colouration which is prominet in the caudal area of most variatus, which I don’t want, and particularly in the males, a strong yellowish / orange colour cast in the base colour of the body when seen against the light .. my impression is that male variatus have stronger red/yellow colours than females, and it’s really the olive green body colour that I’m looking for, with a blue-green iridescence over it.
Any advice greatly appreciated.
Harry
Charles Clapsaddle says
Harry, I don’t know either. I don’t have direct experience with calico in platies and can’t find any information online. I wonder if the Xiphophorus Genetic Stock Center at Texas State University would have some information. I’m also interested in blue in swordails and platies. I just got an accidental cross of a Red Sword and Blue Wag Platy. Surprisingly, the hybrids are nice Blue Wag Swords. Your work on a green platy is interesting. I’m doing something similar in Peacock Cichlids. We do have a line of Emerald Wag Platies I’m working with to intensify the green.
Charles
Wilcoranking says
Any recent updates on the Lyretail experiments?
Charles Clapsaddle says
Nothing recent. We lost so many lyretails in the Texas Winter Storma and its aftermath that I’ve had to work on building up those stocks. I’ll probably try my experiments next spring again.
Charles
charles says
I guess I should log on there and give my experiences, which are so far all negative. But, I’m getting to try again with young males on the theory that older males aren’t trying since they’ve failed so many times.
Charles
Nathan Scott Vaughan says
Charles, I was wondering do you know if the lyretail trait in mollies is dominant or recessive. By the way, I love your work and I find it fascinating… (I am a genetics fanatic)
charles says
Nathan, Your message got misplaced. Sorry for the tardy reply. Lyretail in mollies is a dominant trait. And, unlike lyretail in swordtails and platies, male lyretails have functional gonopodia and can mate naturally.
Charles
charles says
Nathan,
I’m sorry for the tardy reply. Your message got misplaced.
Lyretail in mollies is a dominant trait. And, unlike lyretail in swordtails and platies, male molly lyretails have functional gonopodia and can mate naturally, which allows for the development of true breeding lyretail molly strains.
Charles